In this episode we talk with Dr. Darren Draper, Director of Innovative Learning in Alpine School District. Our topics include: what does innovation look like, what are the reasons why schools are slow to change, what is PIC RAT, and Dani shares an amazing tech tip.
In this episode we talk with Dr. Darren Draper, Director of Innovative Learning in Alpine School District. Our topics include: what does innovation look like, what are the reasons why schools are slow to change, what is PIC RAT, and Dani shares an amazing tech tip.
So, Dani, it's Monday.
It feels like a Monday.
Do you know what's really exciting for this Monday, though?
What is exciting?
We are about to start another episode of UEN Homeroom.
Well, that makes it worth being a Monday, I guess, getting up and Monday-ing.
You ready?
I'm so ready.
Let's kick it off.
Let's do this Homeroom.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right, today, on UEN Homeroom, we're going to be talking about innovation in education. Do you feel innovative today, Jared?
I do. You know, this is a Monday, so I'm feeling refreshed and ready for the week.
That is the opposite of how I feel on Mondays.
Oh.
Takes me until about Thursday to get to innovative.
So it's an innovative Thursday for you?
Yeah.
OK.
Mondays are rough.
Oh, you get-- do you have a case of the Mondays, today?
(LAUGHS) Yeah. I do. I do have a case of the Mondays.
So we need some ideas for innovation, is what you're telling me?
Yeah, or like--
We need to just get you excited to innovate.
Yeah, or a vat of coffee, one of the two.
OK. Well, it's a good thing today we have a special guest.
Yeah, it is. So one of the things that Jared and I have been working on with our Innovative Educator Makerspace class is really getting teachers and students to see themselves as inventors or innovators. And I think this person kind of has the same philosophy as we do.
I agree. No, they've been really willing to make change wherever they've been, and we're excited to hear a little bit about his story and, as well, the things that his department's working on and how he views innovation in the classroom.
Absolutely. So maybe I should go ahead and introduce our guest. What do you think?
I think that's a lovely idea.
All right, lovely. Dr. Darren Draper began his career as a tutor of at-risk students for the UVSC public school partnership. He then moved into being a high school teacher and then the-- what he calls the 1998 version of the edtech coach, which was a technology integration coordinator. He had a lot of positions between then and now, but now he's the Director of Innovative Learning for Alpine School District. He is a proponent for the effective use of technology in schools, and currently his district is the largest district in the state of Utah, with nearly 80,000 students.
Darren is a regular presenter at edtech and academic conferences nationwide and has nearly 20 years of experience in the field. Let's have Darren Draper join us. Hello, Darren.
Hello, Darren.
Hello. Happy to be here today, guys. Thanks for having me on your show.
So, Darren, I have to ask, like Dani was kind of given us a little bit of your bio, but you have to tell people what your current title is because I think it's one of the greatest titles in education.
So my current title is Director of Innovative Learning.
Yeah, it's, that is like the greatest thing.
I actually like the title of teacher a little bit better. It's a little more personable. There's so much pressure that comes with the title of Director of Innovative Learning. You have to have--
So do you--
You gotta be on your A game, all the time.
Do you feel like you have to be innovative in everything you say?
Yeah. Yeah. Draper's here. Watch out. Watch out. Here comes some innovation.
(LAUGHS) Better be new and exciting.
(LAUGHS) Right.
Otherwise, it's letdown, really high expectations. So, just so you know, our expectations are that high today.
That's right.
(LAUGHS) Good. All right, see what I-- see if I can deliver.
[LAUGHTER]
No pressure. We're just expecting a completely innovative conversation today.
Something we've never heard before.
And since it's not a Thursday, Dani may be out, so we have to see what's going to happen.
Yeah, exactly. I've already set the expectations low for this conversation. So anything I say, people are going to be impressed.
So, Darren, we had a minute to kind of hear a little bit of your background. But as a guest on our podcast, one thing that we like to do is we like to get to know you a little bit better and, to do that, we're going to involve some of our studio audience.
Sounds good.
So you may not believe it, but we have actual questions from actual Utah students, some of which may be in Alpine School District. We cannot confirm or deny that.
Good. All right.
So are you ready for your first question?
Yep. Sure. Bring it.
OK, here we go.
What's your favorite holiday?
My favorite holiday, hands down, is Groundhog Day.
That doesn't sound very innovative.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, I just-- I've just found Groundhog Day is becoming so commercialized that it's hard to remember, you know, the real reason for the season.
Yeah? So do you find yourself watching the Bill Murray movie every year?
Hey, I've got one. Groundhog Day, the movie, had-- it's an iterative process, and innovation is often an iterative process. So it totally makes sense for--
Great point. Great point.
--Dr. Draper to like Groundhog Day.
I just thought that Darren always liked Needle--
I'm out.
--Needlenose Ned from Groundhog Day.
[LAUGHTER]
Well, I will tell you, that is a first, for Groundhog's Day, for that, so you have--
For anyone in the history of ever.
You have definitely got a new idea for us. All right, let's go to our second question from another Utah student.
What is your favorite subject to teach in school?
My favorite subject to teach is math. I actually started by teaching PE at Independence High. And that was-- that was fun. My major at BYU was Spanish teaching, and I taught Spanish for a little while. But then I found that math-- when you teach math, kids take math knowing it's going to be hard, and so anything you can do to make it fun and exciting is kind of a bonus.
Yeah.
Whereas, when they take Spanish or maybe some other classes, they sometimes take those thinking that's going to be an easier class. And so anytime you make it hard, it's like pulling teeth. But I love teaching math, especially geometry.
So you may not know this, but I think if I was ever to go back into the classroom, I might want to be a math teacher.
Really? I thought you were more of an English guy.
Well, that's where I started, but having watched a lot of really cool technology integration into math class, it just seems like there's so many cool things you can do with it. I think--
Definitely.
It's just something, like I say, I just love the visual aspects of teaching math using technology and just kind of getting kids to think critically. In my next life, I want to be a math teacher.
I want to be a PE teacher.
It's not too late.
You want to be a PE teacher?
Yeah.
Teaching PE is fun too.
Yeah, I just--
You just like the way they dress.
Yeah, I want yoga pants every day.
[LAUGHTER]
All right, well, in honor of the season, our final question, depending on what week someone's listening to this, may determine how they feel about it. Let's hear.
What is your favorite kind of dessert?
My favorite dessert is, easily, banana cream pie.
Ooh.
Yeah. So are you, with the holidays approaching, does anyone make a banana cream pie for you so that you can indulge?
Yeah, my mom makes the best banana cream pie anywhere.
That is awesome. Should we get started, now that the tough questions are out of the way?
Yeah, now that we've--
Yeah, that was the hard stuff.
Now that we've really challenged--
I think the holidays and food, I think that that's on the minds of students, right now.
It's definitely on our mind.
No question.
That's for sure.
Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it's lunchtime, right now.
Yeah.
It's true. All right, Darren, so you've done a lot as you've moved from district to district and role to role when it comes to what edtech looks like in the classroom and what innovation looks like in the classroom. So our first question for you is, in your mind, and maybe in your district, what does innovation in the classroom look like?
So, for me, it's been fascinating to see different classrooms in different districts, and to see how they approach teaching and learning a little differently. Here, here in Alpine, we believe, really, in the power of strong teams. So innovation, often, in the classroom, looks like a lot of planning ahead of time by a small team, where they come together, they look through the PLC process, determine an essential standard, something that they want to teach students.
And then, as they brainstorm and come up with different ways to best teach that standard, that's where the magic can happen as one person on the team might have an idea or as the team-- that conflict, the creative conflict that comes out of trying to figure out what's best. And then, you know, we see the best practices rise to the top as that team works through that whole PLC process.
Last year, in Alpine, we pushed out-- we've been doing PLCs for a long time in Alpine. But, last year, we formalized it into a-- we call it the PLC results cycle where we have certain steps we want teachers and teams to think through. And one of those steps, really, is to design assessments and design instruction based on the needs of students. And so, as teams, we see that those great ideas surface, and sometimes the not-so-great ideas get left behind.
So, Darren, tell us a little bit about this because we know PLCs are happening all over the place. As you kind of introduced this new kind of twist on this, as you're having your groups kind of talk through some of the different standards and how they plan to meet them, how is that being received by the teachers?
Well, it's-- you know, the process itself-- I mean, teachers and teams have been working together, like I said, for years now. But then to articulate each stop that we want them to consider in the process--
Right.
--has been a good thing. One thing about innovation that I've been pushing as I've been here in Alpine, too, I don't know if you've read George Couros' book, The Innovator's Mindset. Have you read that book?
I haven't read the whole book, but I've read part of it.
Some of it?
Yes. You familiar with George and his work?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, we had George. We had George come out for UCET, a couple years ago.
Yeah. Yeah. So, in the beginning of that book, he defines innovation. And he says, "Innovation isn't just something new," which, when we have technology, it can be easy to say, OK, let's just bring in this technology. It's new. It's going to make things better. But he stresses that it needs to be new and better.
Right.
And if adding technology or making whatever change doesn't make things better, then you really shouldn't do it because it's not innovative if it's making things worse. And so we just try to clarify for teachers that innovation really is new plus better. And the coaches that we have, now, as they work with teachers, they stress that. And if there's a technology that the teachers wanted to use, and it doesn't really improve the learning, our coaches are asked to make sure that they don't use the technology.
Hmm.
I think that's great to empower teachers to really say, and help them to be empowered to say, you know, this is-- this may be new and it may be the latest thing, but it's not making my teaching better. So we're going to take a step back and we're not going to use that anymore.
Right. Right.
So, Darren, question about that, because, like a lot of districts, they kind of have a technology or a program or a tool that gets implemented district-wide, right? Like, oh, we really like the way this helps teachers to improve reading scores or to improve math scores or whatever it is. Tell me a little bit about how you use technology and how you kind of determine which tools do you think you want to encourage teachers to use?
So we do have a small set of tools that we encourage teachers to use or that we support. We call them district-supported solutions. We've-- we realized that there are hundreds of thousands of apps out there now, and it can be easy to get lost in the quantity of technology that's now available. So, as district teams, we've come together, and we've identified a few district-supported solutions, Canvas, for example, being one in our secondary schools.
The process that we have for adding technology to that list of district-supported solutions is-- it's not one that we take lightly. We have many different eyes looking at the tools. We try to put things through a piloting process to where we can work out all of the kinks, all of the bugs. I think, sometimes, I think it's safe to say, in Alpine, we've been a little-- we've traditionally been a little hesitant to adopt new technology and may be a little more slow in our adoption, just to make sure it really does make things better.
Yeah, I would say your district takes a traditionally conservative approach.
Yeah. Yeah, and that's-- there are a number of reasons for that. Our community, I think, itself, is probably a little more conservative than other communities. But just in teacher philosophy and-- in Alpine, too, we do believe in teacher empowerment. We really do give teachers a lot of freedom as far as what they teach, when they teach it. They do work in teams, so we're moving toward more common formative assessments and common curriculum maps, but that team really has a lot of control over what they teach and when. So--
That's awesome. So you talked about your teachers' role in innovating and learning, and you talked a bit about the ed techs that-- what do you call them, Innovative Learning Specialists?
Yeah, we call them Innovative Learning Coaches.
Innovative Learning Coaches, so you've talked a little bit about them. What about the students' role in innovating in their learning?
Oh, that's such a great question. As we push out more and more technology, it's being seen as more of a student tool, rather than a teacher tool. We're shifting from that teacher focus of their use of technology to a student focus and the teacher being more of a facilitator in the learning. We've been using a model called the PICRAT model. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that.
I'm not.
Have you seen that before?
No.
Yeah, why don't you explain that, a little bit?
So Royce Kimmons developed that out of BYU, back in 2017. It's similar to the SAMR model, whereas, you know, a teacher should look at how the technology is being used. Does it Replace, does it Amplify, or does it Transform traditional practice? That's where the RAT comes in, and I'm not a fan of the name PICRAT, but that's where the R-A-T comes from.
Yeah, I was a little worried that you guys had an infestation in Alpine District, there, but.
No, the powerful thing in this model, though, is the student side. So the PIC part of the model stands for Passive, Interactive, or Creative.
Love it.
In that, what is the student's relationship to technology? Are they using it passively, you know, using it maybe to watch a video or something like that? Are they interacting with the technology? Or are they using the technology for creative purposes or, really, to attack any of the six C's? Are they using it to Collaborate, to Communicate? How are students using technology, and is it improving their learning?
So the coaches that you discuss there, Dani, we do call them Innovative Learning Coaches, and that name has been intentional, even though it's kind of a longer title. It's a bit of a mouthful, but we want to stress that it's about the student learning, not necessarily about the teacher and what the teacher is teaching. Because we're seeing that technology, at times, can do a lot of teaching, and so it's really-- it really is about what's being learned and how much and how quickly and how deeply the learning is taking place.
I like that, and I really like the emphasis on students as creators. I think that's-- I think it's really important that teachers make sure that they're getting there with their technology.
Yeah. Yeah. It's too easy to just have surface-level learning, when it comes to technology. Too many technologies out there that, you know, the drill and kill, just the lower DOK-type experiences. A deep learning is really what we're going for when we stress our technology use.
Yeah, we were just having a conversation today that a classroom, if you went into a classroom, and all students were kind of just into the skill and drill on a computer, if you felt like that was successful integration of technology, then you're kind of about 10 years too late. Right? That--
Right.
I mean, it's just one of those things that, yeah, it's great to have the devices. But, in your PICRAT, that would definitely be on the B side, right, I mean, and not moving anywhere towards the creative or the integrated side?
Yeah. Yeah.
So, Darren, as you've kind of come into the district and you've been working and building your team, maybe tell us a little bit about that process. Like, as you were looking to bring new people onboard, what were some of the qualities that you were looking for your staff and some of the expectations you have of them?
So we went through a fairly rigorous hiring process to hire this team of coaches, last year and the year before. We were really looking for great teachers, first, and then enthusiastic and effective users of technology, second. We-- as far as technology goes, I've seen that it's-- I call it the great amplifier, where it really, it either amplifies good or bad teaching.
And so we wanted our coaches to be the best teachers, to be-- to feel confident when they encounter a situation where the technology really is making things worse. We want our coaches to feel confident enough in their abilities that they can suggest some better ways to teach, maybe without the technology.
Right.
So, you know, that-- that's-- we ended up interviewing, last year, [? Blaine ?] [? Edmond ?] and I, we counted about 90 or so interviews, just for these few positions that we had open.
And that's a pretty big shift in your district, to have that many, you know, coaches involved, right? I'm assuming that that's kind of opening your department to be quite a bit larger than they've ever had before?
Yeah, it has been a big shift. There were edtech specialists, a few years ago-- Right.
--that, for whatever reason, that that team shrunk in size through the years. And but then, just the last year or two, as a district, we've seen the need to expand it, and coaching has really taken off, this year, in our district.
Tell us a little bit about how your digital innovation coaches are being received in the schools.
Very well. It's been an interesting process to witness. I think, in fairness, it's different from school to school.
Right.
And schools that have a principal and a leadership team that has a vision for coaching, things are obviously going a lot better than in schools that where they don't. So our professional development, this year, for teachers-- well, around coaching, hasn't just been for teachers. It's been for principals, getting a vision for how to use a coach, how to set the tone in a school and to set the expectations and the spaces for coaching to take place. But it has been, in some cases, it's been a little challenging for-- because this is a role that's new to teachers in some of our schools, you know, a role where maybe they didn't see a need for coaches.
But, overall, you know, I think things have been very well received. I'm very pleased with where we are, so far. Great conversations are happening as we talk about this PLC process, the teachers and their role in ensuring that learning takes place, and then being able to provide a support like an instructional coach or an innovative learning coach to help those teachers who may be struggling.
You know, I think that's interesting, Darren, because that's a similar thing that we're seeing across the state, is that the need to help administration understand the changing dynamics of the classroom, a little bit.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean that there--
That, it's critical.
Yeah, it doesn't mean that they're out of touch. But, you know, I'm just saying like, for them, they're such a critical piece to the vision of what we're trying to accomplish.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And with instructional coaching, they really are-- next to the coach, the principal probably plays-- has the biggest impact on the effectiveness of the coaching program in the school. If they can set the tone and create an environment where the coach can be successful, it's all the better for that coach.
Now, are your coaches assigned to an individual school, or do they go to-- between schools? How does that work?
We followed the same staffing ratios that I put in place up in Canyons when I worked for Canyons District, where, in secondary, it's one coach for two schools. And then, elementary, it's one coach for three schools.
OK.
All right, so we have one last question for you. So when it comes to innovation in education, what do you see as the biggest obstacle that you're dealing with? And how do we overcome those?
So I think there are a couple big obstacles. One, of course, is tradition. Innovation, inherently, is something new. And so, when you introduce change, there are times when the status quo pushes back against change.
We've never heard that in education, Darren.
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah. So I think that's-- you know, that's one of the obstacles. And the trick, there, I think, really, it comes down to collaboration. And when-- if we're honest, collaboration takes work. It's difficult, sometimes. It's an essential skill because it can be hard to learn. It requires a little bit of give and take. And I think, also, for innovation to take place, we really, as teachers, as administrators, as whole systems, we need to take a little more time to reflect on what we're doing, on past experience, on what's gone well and what hasn't.
Do take a little time to research best practice, a little bit more, to see what others are doing well, to get out and expand the PLC maybe, a little bit, to include people from other locations, other schools. But all of that takes time, and it takes a commitment to the work and a willingness to learn from others.
I really appreciate you bringing up the reflection piece. I think that's so important and, like you said, it takes time. And, as educators, and all of us in education, that is one thing that we are spread very thin on, is having enough time to do that. But I think reflection is so important when it comes to learning from what we've done and what we hope to do as we move forward.
I agree.
Yeah, Darren, one thing you said that was really interesting to me-- we just had a conversation with Melanie Durfee from the State Board of Education, recently, and we were talking about working in groups. And it's interesting because the easy thing to do is what we saw when we were students. Right? It's to--
Sure.
--be the content expert, and just get up there and, you know, kind of do the brain drain and share with the kids everything that you know. But in the student-centered classroom, it's so much prework for us, now, to think about what is the best way to approach this so the kids can learn it, not so that I can show what I know.
Right, and then taking the time--
That takes a lot more effort.
--to garner buy-in from all of the stakeholders, from students, from parents possibly, and really trying to figure out what are our best next steps.
Yeah, because you can imagine, in that traditional model, if you were being evaluated, if you're standing up front talking, you look like you know what you're doing. If it's a-- if a principal comes in, and you're just kind of over there working with one kid while other kids are working and doing things, you may be-- a traditional thing would be like, oh, this is-- class is chaotic. We don't know what's going on here. But in our modern age, we know that if the teacher set it up appropriately, that's what learning should look like.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, Darren, so you mentioned that there's another thing that you wanted to bring up with us that's a great way for your technology innovation coaches and other teachers in your district to come together and collaborate and share ideas, that's coming up in March. What would you like to share with us?
Oh, well, we're just excited for UCET, the UCET Conference. Last year, as a district, we ended up sending about 200 teachers to UCET, and it was just such a great two days, two days of PD for those teachers to come together, reflect on what they're doing, bounce ideas off other teachers, to learn from the great presenters. We're excited about UCET coming up in March.
At first, we were a little worried about the day of the week change, holding it on a Tuesday, Wednesday. It made us a little nervous. But then as we thought through it, the sub issues aren't going to be as big of a problem as if it were on a Friday. And, for us, it's great because it's down here in Provo, so we're just really excited to learn from others and to have a great two-day conference.
That's fabulous. Will you be having some of your innovative coaches presenting?
Yes, I'm going to ask them all to present.
Oh, that's awesome.
They don't know that yet, so--
Oh! We'll keep this under wraps for another week or two, so get that message out to them (LAUGHS).
So one thing that, in podcast-land out there, that you don't get to visualize, those 200 teachers all showed up wearing the exact same T-shirt.
It was amazing.
And what color was it, last year?
(LAUGHS) It was the same color as the volunteers.
So not only did they wear the same T-shirt as our volunteers, they got a lot of inquiries about where lunch was.
Yeah, where's the bathroom?
I must say that they were all very helpful and kind.
Yes.
It was like we had an extra 200 volunteers, courtesy of Darren Draper.
What color are you guys going with, this year, for volunteers?
I'm not sure yet, but I'll let you know (LAUGHS).
Will you tell us what color you're going with so we can match again?
All right.
All right, Darren, thanks so much for being with us. You're amazing, as always.
Yep.
Happy to be-- happy to join you. This has been a great conversation.
Appreciate your time, Darren. Thanks for all the work you do.
Hey, you too. Have a great afternoon.
OK, thanks. Bye bye.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
So, Dani, do you want to give our audience the Tech Tip, today?
I mean, do we have to?
Well, I mean, this is a podcast kind of about technology.
I'm tired. Do you have a Tech Tip for today?
I mean, I guess if I have to, I can come up with one.
I mean, all right. My lazy-person Tech Tip, today, is truly life-changing. And, hopefully, I'm getting to this to you before you've seen it on your Instagram Story-- because that's where I saw it because one of my friends shared it on an Instagram Story.
But you know when you're on your smartphone and you're trying to edit some text that you've typed in? Maybe you have a block paragraph of text that you've typed in, and you need to change just one letter, and you click on it and it highlights the whole word, or you need to get to a certain place in the paragraph, and you just can't get your cursor there because you're fat-fingering it.
Here's the trick. You ready? You hold down your Spacebar, and then your thumb becomes a mover for the cursor, and it makes it the easiest way to move that cursor around in the paragraph of text. Jared, you tried it this morning. What did you think?
[JARED MIMICKING EXPLOSION]
That's right, I have just blown Jared Covili's mind. It's that amazing.
As somebody with fat fingers, this is life-changing.
I told you! I told you I had a good one for today. I was not lying. This tip will change your life. You're welcome, smartphone users.
Yep, this one's gold. Go out and try it.
All right, be lazy. Use tech.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
So, Dani, I really loved our conversation about innovation. I definitely got some great ideas for how I can step up my game.
Yeah, it's always interesting talking to Darren. He's always got some great ideas on what edtech coaches can be doing differently, how to involve educators, how to involve students. But I really liked what he was saying about involving administrators and principals in that process.
Yeah, I think some of the things that we forget, sometimes, is the leadership component requires more than just maybe a great teacher or a dedicated group of students. But an administrator can really shape the direction of the whole school, or the whole district.
Right, and we both learned a new edtech term.
That's right.
Rat Pack, right?
Right.
What was it? It was PICRAT.
Oh, that's right, PICRAT.
So all--
He said he would send over the model.
I hope I get a PICRAT for Christmas.
[DANI LAUGHING]
But, now, it's time for us to wrap up, Dani.
It is that time. Is it Monday, Monday-nap o'clock?
It may be nap o'clock, so let's take off.
All right.
Thanks, everybody.
Goodbye.
[MUSIC PLAYING]