Melanie Durfee, Digital Learning Specialist from the Utah Board of Education, drops by the Homeroom to discuss making group work, well - work. We talk about the misconceptions of groups, how to work through challenges, providing structure for student to student conversations about learning, and making personalized learning matter.
Melanie Durfee, Digital Learning Specialist from the Utah Board of Education, drops by the Homeroom to discuss making group work, well - work. We talk about the misconceptions of groups, how to work through challenges, providing structure for student to student conversations about learning, and making personalized learning matter.
Hi, I'm Jared Covili.
And I'm Dani Sloan.
And we're your Homeroom teachers, excited to bring you another UEN's Homeroom Podcast.
Just heard the bell. Let's get to class.
[THEME MUSIC PLAYING]
This week we are going to be talking about group work and personalized learning.
Ugh.
I know. I know that's what I was going to hear as soon as I said the words "group" and "work" together in a sentence. Why that sound, Jared?
I have to tell you, Dani, there were some times in school where I didn't really like group work.
Why?
Every once in a while, I would be the kid that liked to get things done quickly.
The kid or the grown-up?
OK, so maybe it's gone on to my adult life as well.
[LAUGHS]
But, yeah, sometimes I would find that I was somebody who wanted to get done pretty quick. And sometimes the rest of the group wasn't quite ready to work yet.
OK.
And so I found myself doing maybe more than my share.
All right.
Nobody else out there has ever experienced that, have you?
No, I think that's just isolated to you.
OK.
No, obviously this is a problem with group work. But when it comes to personalized learning, how does that make you feel?
Well, that's a little different. And both-- I won't say that I totally dislike group work because I can see a benefit to it. Like when I had things that I didn't know anything about, it was great to have peers that I could talk with or learn from, right?
Absolutely.
But now that we're talking about personalized learning as well, sometimes there's things that you're more passionate about than everybody else. And it's great that you can find those things and maybe have more of a chance to explore topics at a pace that fits you.
Exactly. It's interesting the different connotations between the words "group work" and the words "personalized learning." One gives us the warm fuzzies, while the other gives us the heebie jeebies, depending which side of the teacher platform that you're on. But we have an expert here that maybe is going to help us feel better about all of that.
Yeah, let's introduce her. So we're pleased today to have Melanie Durfee with us. Melanie Durfee has worked in Utah Public Education in the areas of technology, English, theater, and math. She currently works as a Digital Teaching and Learning Specialist for the Utah State Board of Education.
Melanie was awarded a PhD in Mathematics Leadership and Curriculum from Utah State. In her dissertation, she studied student teams, solving math problems, and middle school classrooms. Now, Melanie describes herself as boring. But we tend to think of her as being drama-free. In fact, Melanie actually eats the same food every day.
I respect that. I like that. It's like the uniform thing. She's avoiding the paradox of choice.
You do know what we have to ask her though to start the podcast?
What do we have to ask her?
What those meals are.
All right, well let's welcome Melanie. Melanie, you're here to talk about food or personalized learning, I'm not really sure.
How about personalized food?
Oh, I like it!
So, Melanie, you do have to give us a little bit of an insight here. So you eat the same thing every day. Can you share with us what's your breakfast every day?
Scrambled eggs, banana, and cheese.
Now is banana part of the scrambled eggs? Or is on the side? Because I'm a little nervous about that.
It's on the side.
Oh, OK.
Never varies.
All right, well, there you go. Well, now that you've had your time with questions--
Oh, yes, yes, it's not about me.
We need to take questions from some of our favorite Utah students. So are you ready?
Yes.
We're going to kick it off with our first Utah student, who's ready to ask Melanie a question. And here we go.
What is your favorite snack?
My favorite snack would have to be my 9:30 snack, which is going to be Greek yogurt and almonds.
And it has to happen at 9:30.
Yeah, it pretty much does.
What if it was 9:33?
Then I might be too hungry when I have it.
So you wouldn't enjoy it the same way.
No, I wouldn't. I might get too tired at 9:32 because I was lacking a snack.
And what if you got super hungry at 9:28.
Oh, it just never happens because of the scrambled egg, banana, cheese.
I need to get on this routine here because I cannot be that regimented.
All right, our next question.
What is your favorite holiday?
It's got to be Valentine's Day. My real name is--
I didn't know this.
That was so quick. There was like literally no thought there. She just knew, Valentine's Day, bam.
And not only that, but immediately, that's the last one that I would even think of, right? So tell us about this.
My full name is Melanie Valentine Durfee.
Oh, well, there you go.
And in grade school, kids would say, "Happy Melanie Valentine's Day" because it was a pun.
Oh, but it's adorable.
It is adorable.
It is. OK.
Thank you for asking, curious Utah student.
And our third question.
If you were a tree, what tree would you be?
Elm.
An elm tree. Is there a reason?
E-L-M, so easy to spell and difficult to mispronounce.
I love it.
I've never thought of my favorite tree as being based upon its spelling.
Well, it's weird that you've ever thought of a favorite tree. I think this student is a little strange. But no judgment, curious Utah student, as Melanie described them.
What grades do they learn about trees? Maybe he's really interested in the--
Could be.
--personalized learning.
Fourth?
Maybe they're just a future aborist.
I remember teaching a little bit about them in fourth. All right, let's move on.
OK, well, Melanie we're really excited to have you here today.
Thank you.
As we've kind of discussed offhand, we're going to talk a little bit about group work and then maybe move into a little bit about personalized learning. So Dani and I kind of talked about this a minute ago when we started the podcast. For some people, just saying the phrase "group work" has different meanings. What are some of the reactions you get from teachers when you start talking about group work?
The first reaction is the same as the reaction you had, Jared, which is, ugh. But then--
Did I groan a little bit?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm sorry.
You did. But then after I push them for a while, usually students and teachers will say, oh, well, I did have a good group once. And it was really amazing because we all worked together. And we did way more than we ever could. But that just doesn't happen very often.
So it seems to me like group work is amazing when it's functional. But it's not functional very often. So the question is, how do you make group work functional so it can be amazing?
Yeah, because I think your experience is not dissimilar from what Dani and I encounter sometimes when we're doing our trainings because we like to put people into groups. And we'll get that kind of initial reaction sometimes. And I think it's because they tend to dwell on the negative experiences rather than taking a minute, focusing it on, hey, what was a positive experience that you had with it? And maybe let's focus on how we can replicate that.
Yeah.
I tend to agree with you, Jared, because I think a lot of what we do as grownups or as adults or in our job on the PD team is group work. We just don't tend to think of it that way with that label, with that negative connotation that comes with it. We are working together. And we get to pick up and do what we're best at, what our strengths are.
So Katzenbach and Smith have written a series of books about high-performance teams. And they have studied what makes teams successful in business industry. And they list seven different components.
And I've thought about some of those components and thought about what would be the most significant to a classroom setting. So what do you guys think? What do you think makes a successful business team?
I would think that there would have to be a clear leader. I would think that there would have to be communication guidelines.
Yeah, and I would say open guidelines. So there is a structure to it. But people have the ability to share what they think.
So still some flexibility.
Still some flexibility. Other things that I think, I think there have to be defined roles but that those roles don't happen the same way every time.
And maybe a goal in mind, working towards a goal, a combined-- a shared goal. That's my best guess. How'd we do?
You guys did really well.
Did we pass?
You did.
Oh, thank goodness. Jared and I like As. We're not B students.
Homeroom.
[LAUGHS]
Yeah, in the Homeroom, it's all about the As.
Yeah, well, there is a clear leader. And it's going to be the person with a teaching degree.
Usually that, in our office, is Dani.
Dani. Dani has a teaching degree?
I do. And I'm in charge.
Clearly the leader.
That's awesome. I think that the shared responsibilities are super important and the defined roles because one of the things that happens frequently is that-- like what you were mentioning, Jared-- one student who is maybe more objective-oriented or just wants to get things done really quickly or wants to make sure they don't finish before the bell rings will want to get started right away. And some other students might want to consider and just sit back and think for a little bit.
And socialize a little bit potentially if it's a group where they've got friends.
And one thing I have noticed-- I did do some research on this for my dissertation-- sometimes I thought kids were just messing around. But they were really thinking.
So that was part of their process.
Yeah, you know flossing? Do you know what I mean by flossing?
The dance?
Yeah. There was one student who needed to floss before he could address any problem.
[LAUGHS] All right.
And that was like--
I just had this mental image of a kid flossing right now in class.
And then having this ah-ha moment. Ah-ha! I have flossed
The teacher walks by. And the kid says, this helps me think.
And Abby's like, sit down, Bryce. Stop flossing. And he just doesn't even pay any attention to her. And then she goes on without him. And all of a sudden, Bryce jumps in and solves the problem.
Oh, I was more of a dabber when I was doing this. So I would just occasionally give a dab before I felt like I could think.
That's still a thing.
Yeah, well, I don't know. I'm really old. So maybe that was the thing for me.
That's cool. But if you have the distinct roles, every student knows where to jump in and where to start. And if you want, we can do a big for instance on this. So defined roles are really important because it gives students a place to start.
And each of them are going to start someplace different so that no one feels like they're obligated to do somebody else's work because we're all starting in someplace different. Does that make sense? Or should I give an example right now?
Well, I'm just-- I'm thinking out loud here just for a second because you said, defined roles. And I know some teachers are really good about the structure. And other teachers kind of want the kids to figure out their roles on their own. So share with us maybe an example of how this works effectively.
I can tell you how it doesn't work effectively, from my study, is when teachers expect the students to figure out the roles on their own.
OK.
It's just really lucky when it happens. But it doesn't usually happen. What usually happens is the Jareds just kind of get it done.
I really like how you defined that kid as a Jared.
Yeah, and the Melanies are flossing.
Some people need think time. So the teacher needs to describe the roles and define those roles for the students. Does that mean that every time the student gets assigned the same role because maybe the Jareds are the fast starters? Or do we have to have times where we're assigned different roles that might make us feel uncomfortable?
Yes.
OK.
That's exactly what the teacher needs to do. The teacher needs to know his or her students well enough to be able to figure that out. And I think that I need to give some examples because I think that that's just way too broad at this point.
So I'm going to take an eighth grade classroom. And we're doing math. And we're doing linear equations. So that's y equals mx plus b.
Is there a drawing? Can I get a diagram of this or something?
I'm with you.
OK.
No, you're good. I'm teasing.
OK. I pulled a diagram out of my purse.
For those of you who are mathematically impaired, Melanie was ready to draw the formula for me, just so you know.
And so that linear equation represents a line, linear, line. And depending on-- well, so that's the math that's involved. And here's the problem. You're a manufacturer for a shoe company. And you need to buy laces. And you need to buy laces that will fit so many holes in the shoes.
So say you have a hole with-- you have a shoe with six holes. How long does that lace need to be? You have a shoe with eight holes. How long does that lace need to be? The answer to that question can be solved with a linear equation.
OK.
Does that make sense?
And this sounds like a problem we would see in any number of schools, any number of math classrooms.
Uh-huh, and thinking eighth grade. And so one person could-- their role-- so you're in a team of four. And one person's role for this is to Google the question and see if anybody else has an answer to it.
OK.
And then--
So they're the researcher.
Yeah. Or what's it called when you find an answer without doing the work?
They're the mooch. [LAUGHS]
Like the cheat? Like you're looking for like video game cheats [INAUDIBLE].
If they're over 18, they're resourceful. If they're under 18, they're cheating.
Right, right, right, right, right. So we probably have to use a word that's more positive than--
They're resourceful.
Collaborator.
Oh, online collaborator.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Google is my collaboration partner often.
Mine as well.
So that could be one student's role. And another student, their job could be to find a shoe-- or the teacher could provide them, depending on what she wants to do-- find a shoe that has three holes, six on-- or three on each side, six holes. And see how long the laces are that need to lace that up. So lace up a shoe. And then measure the length of lace that that took.
OK.
And then another student could--
So they're kind of an experimenter. They're actually going to try it.
Yeah, uh-huh, or they're collecting data.
Yeah.
And then somebody else could do that with another shoe with a different number of holes. And then another person could do that-- could see how much lace it takes to tie a bow.
Because there will be a lot of different ways to do that. So there's some variables there.
So after students collect data like that-- and see, the teacher doesn't direct everything because that's only two pieces of data. Ideally, what would happen is the groups would say, we need more data. And then they would ask each other.
The teacher could direct them to do that. Or she could hold back and see if they figure that out on their own. And that's one of those times when-- you asked earlier do we just let the kids figure out the roles or do we tell them what to do? I think initially, it's very rare. You really pretty much have to tell them what to do.
But a teacher is going to get to that point where she needs to observe and think, are they stuck? Are they getting this hint? Oh, this kid has this hint. I'm going to go send this kid over to these groups and see if this conversation starts up right there.
So that's an example. That's not obvious. That took me a little bit of thinking time to do. So this isn't something that a teacher can do without thinking about it firsthand.
This isn't-- you'd have to really know your curriculum and know your students and what technology tools you have available. Maybe you live in a school where no one wears lace-up shoes. Then what?
Then they're like my 10-year-old who still can't tie his shoes.
So then, you know, so that--
This example would blow his mind. He wouldn't even know what to do.
We'd have to figure something else out for him.
We'd have to say, this is how many Velcro straps you have. And this is how you just walk around with your shoe laces on the ground too because that's another thing because that whole loops thing would blow his mind.
Oh, OK.
I think I just said too much as a parent. I apologize. My son's a very smart child. We're quite proud of him.
Everyone has their strengths, remember.
Yeah, we're proud of him. I have a question. Now, you just described this. And I-- One of the challenges that I think that a lot of teachers experience with group work is what you just described that maybe they haven't put in the time in advance to organize the groups effectively for the problem or the challenge that they're trying to solve.
And you and I kind of talked about this. This is kind of a two-part question here. So that's one of the things. What is the teacher's role before assigning group work?
But then I also want to ask, what's the teacher's role during the group? Because I know some teachers that just go sit at their desk and kind of expect the kids to kind of work on this as groups. And they'll figure it out on their own. Tell us a little about that pre-work for the teacher and then during group work.
OK, pre-work is super important. And this sounds like it's so obvious but it's a shortcut that I always tried to take as a teacher. And every time I took this shortcut, it ended poorly. And that is, make-- sometimes teachers don't work out the problems before they give them to their students.
And I've done this before. I say, oh, in my head, yeah, I know what's going to happen. Yeah, I know this. But then it's different when I sit down to work it out. So the first thing teachers need to do is work out the problems.
And then kind of channel the personas of their students like, what is Trevor going to do? Trevor is going to stand up and say that he has to sharpen his pencil because that's what Trevor seems to do when he doesn't want to think.
Or I know that Jaycee loves making charts. She is going to just want to not just do two shoes. She's going to want to do 25 shoes. That's just what she likes to do. She loves gathering data. And she makes sure that everything's written perfectly.
So try to anticipate how the students are going to react. And during the-- that was the first question. The second one is just pay attention to your students. And the students who need extra attention are the students with special needs like especially behavioral needs.
Sometimes this type of inactivity might irritate a sensitive student. And sometimes it might over-stimulate some other students. So just be aware of what your students need.
And some of these problems are solved by proximity. Sometimes they're solved by grouping. Sometimes I've seen teachers not put a student in a group. But the student was in charge of helping her help the other groups.
So still had a role just a different one.
Yeah, not as a group. But the teacher really has to pay attention. I have seen teachers do work at their desk. And it always ends poorly.
Because I would assume that the kids kind of get that vibe like it's not that important. That's why I've got other things to do. And so I'm giving you something to work on because I really need to work on something else right now.
Yeah, you nailed it, exactly.
So one other question that I kind of have is you just talked about grouping, grouping by ability levels or by different categories of how you might choose to group kids. What are your thoughts on that? What are effective groups look like as far as ability levels?
What I like to do-- and I did a lot of research on this. And I didn't find one thing that is, like, this is research-based the best way to group. I didn't find anything like that. But this was what I observed was best for teachers.
That was to start with ability grouping and attitude grouping. Like all of the students who didn't seem to care about getting good grades, putting them together. All of the students who really, really wanted an A, putting them together.
How would that work? So tell me a little bit about that because I could see--
So which group do you want to hear about?
So I'm just thinking the group that everybody wants an A might have some conflict just because everybody wants to be the leader. Whereas, the other group might have conflict because nobody wants to be the leader.
Yeah, so for the one where everyone wanted to be the leader, I think a lot of it has to do with a general anxiety that they're not going to get all their points. I'm just going to make that assumption.
Sure. That group is typically points-driven.
Yeah, so be cognizant of that when you're explaining the assignment. And when I say, you, I mean the teacher. So the teacher reassures them that they're all going to be OK. Their grades are going to be really awesome. This is a chance for them to learn. And your grades are all going to be really, really good. So that generally takes a--
Kind of diffuses that.
Yeah, but it does take a few times of practicing for them to learn to not beat each other. It's not--
Competition.
Yeah, they're trying to learn and understand the problem. The competition is with whether or not they can solve the problem. It's them versus the math instead of them versus each other.
Right. How about the other group? I'm just curious. So we've talked about the group that everybody's point-driven. What about the group where nobody's really point-driven?
So I studied a group of students where each one of them had a different type of learning disability. And they needed a lot of scaffolds, more so than any other group that I studied. And what basically happened was the teacher needed to get all the other groups started and then-- or have a paraprofessional take care of all the other groups. And the teacher had to sit with that group for three sessions before they would engage.
And the benefit of doing that is that-- I might get emotional over this-- the students with the learning disabilities were so appreciative that they got to participate. In fact, one of the students-- I gave them all pseudonyms-- Devon, not his real name, one of the students, the teacher was a little annoyed because he wouldn't stop talking out giving answers in other times of math class, which is he never participated previously to doing group work.
He'd just kind of stare and look around and just not engage. But he was just so chatty. And he's like, we want to do this now. Stop talking. And she's like, well, I need to finish giving the instructions. But then you can start working.
So it took a lot of teacher support to get those students to engage. But they were hooked for life. They were just little sassy mathers. Yeah, it really was sweet. In my opinion, it was so worth all the effort to get them there.
It sounds super empowering for those kids.
Yeah.
Well, and that's amazing because the teacher was able to get the other groups going and then focus the attention that those students needed. And that's kind of a way of we're talking about personalized learning there too because those kids were getting what they needed, which kind of leads into our last topic and question, which is personal learning is kind of sometimes described as independent learning. And how can we get students communicating and learning from one another while focusing on learning that is geared for different ability levels?
So it's the same as group work. When we think about it, it sounds ideal. But it's often very labor-intensive for the teacher. So if I were a new teacher, or if I just decided, OK, I want to have more of a focus on personalized learning in my class, what would be some of the steps to get there for you and for helping other students to help each other?
Well, how big are the Utah classrooms?
Well--
The short answer is too big.
OK, I'm going to say 30--
Yes.
--because it's divisible by three and 10 and two and five.
We have a tough time believing that you used to be a math teacher.
[LAUGHTER]
A teacher cannot keep track of 30 students simultaneously.
What?
They have eyes in the back of their head.
Yes.
Sideways, everywhere.
Unless the teacher demands that everybody do the same thing at the same time, which we decided doesn't work very well, the teacher can't possibly do that. So we need to train the students how to discuss with each other. And they're not necessarily teaching each other as much as they're processing with each other.
This is how I understand it. Well, this is how I understand it. I'm going to build off your idea. I don't like your idea. How come you don't like my idea? Well, it doesn't take into account this. Oh, yeah, it does. You just didn't understand my idea. All these conversations help the students process.
And the students can be engaged simultaneously with each other. And the teacher is more there to give supports and to give scaffolds and to, like you said, Jared, make sure that the students are grouped well. And it's not something that you decide beforehand and it works.
It's something that you decide beforehand, and then you change it. Sometimes in the middle of a project you need to change it. Sometimes you might not have known that there's a family feud between the two students working together. And it's just best to separate them.
That's sometimes the art of teaching instead of the science of teaching.
Yes, understanding the relationship the students have with each other and helping them build those relationships because their peers are going to be who they work with when they grow up. They're not going to work with teachers. So it's super important, I think, that they learn how to communicate with each other. It's good that they can communicate with their teacher. But their peers are who they're going to be solving the world's problems with when they grow up.
I loved that. You just blew my mind with that statement.
I think I'm changing how I feel about group work.
Oh, my gosh. You did it, Melanie.
I have a smile on my face right now.
You did it. Mission accomplished.
I just want to go find some children right now and group them up and teach them something.
Teach them some math.
Do they have any kids here at U of U I can--
There's some college kids. Go group them.
We're in the library. I'm going to go look for some as soon as this is over.
Oh, yeah, go to the Knowledge Commons. There are some people looking for knowledge.
I want to group them.
So, Melanie, as we kind of wrap up, I know that you're involved in a few different projects with your new position. Do you want to just kind of tell people about the webinars that you have going on right now and maybe how they can participate in those?
Awesome. I am finding out so many amazing things that Utah teachers are doing in their classrooms. And I'm also getting a lot of requests to learn about certain things. One specific request I've had a lot lately is how do you manage your classroom when you have so much group work and so much technology? How can you do this, sustain your energy levels for seven periods a day?
You have to eat the same foods every day to start with.
It helps. And make sure you have two snacks in there. That's really important. And so the third Thursday of every month, we have a webinar that features this, one of these practices. And if we have more people who are willing to volunteer to present and more requests, we can do more than once a month.
How do they get in touch with you if they'd like to find out this information or if they're willing to present?
The name of the webinar is Take On Teaching. It's a little bit of a pun, like, what's your take on teaching?
Or you're ready to take on teaching.
Yeah, I meant that. I meant both of those. So you can find an application at www.tinyurl.com/takeonteaching.
Fabulous.
I'm ready to take on teaching right now.
Shall we?
Mm-hm.
Melanie, we really appreciate you being a guest in the Homeroom this month.
I loved it. I'm going to go find some college students to teach right now.
I would start with the students that take Dani's class in Teacher Ed, right?
Oh, yeah, they're great.
None of them have any math anxiety that Melanie could help them with.
Oh, man, they would love you. They would love you. All right, Melanie, thank you for being with us.
Thank you so much.
We super appreciate you.
Loved it.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
So, Dani, do you want to give our audience a tech tip today?
I mean, do we have to?
Well, I mean, this is a podcast kind of about technology.
I'm tired. Do you have a tech tip for today?
I mean, I guess if I have to, I can come up with one.
I mean--
Well, I guess if I have to do a tech tip, here's a great one for a lot of you. This isn't necessarily a new tip. But it's something that a lot of teachers still maybe aren't utilizing.
One of my favorite Google tools is Google Voice. Now, a lot of you maybe have a Google Voice number that you've used for your personal lives. But I'm also going to suggest to you if you have a teacher account, creating a Google Voice number for your teacher classroom can be a really nice way for students and parents to be able to reach out to you without necessarily having your personal cell phone number.
I know when I was a classroom teacher, I would be in events that were after hours. And so parents couldn't get in touch with me to let me know that maybe a student wasn't coming to the basketball practice or they weren't able to come to the event that we had on even like a Saturday.
A Google Voice number is a great way for you to have a number where parents and students can call and leave you a message without necessarily getting your personal cell phone number. So if you've never heard of that before, you can go check that out at voice.google.com. I think it's a winner.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Jared, thank you so much. I do have a question though. How many phone numbers from Google can I have?
You can actually have a phone number for every Google account that you have. So how many Google accounts do you have?
I think that's a personal question. But if you start having weird numbers spamming you, it's probably me.
Yeah, because I will say, I do take advantage of the Google Voice every day that I can give out a phone number without it being too personal.
No, I think that's a great idea. I really appreciate that tech tip. Thanks, Jared.
Well, we've just had a wonderful conversation with Melanie about group work and personalized learning. I learned a ton.
Yeah, she is an excellent resource when it comes to that.
And she's super passionate about it, which I think is something that teachers need to see that there are great ways to kind of break free from what you learned as a student maybe in a classroom where this stuff didn't work as well as you would have liked.
Absolutely. Even in college classes, we see that there's group work. And it may not be as well organized or designed as it could be. And Melanie was giving us some great examples of that.
Yeah, no question, I'm going to rethink how I do group work the next time I choose to do that as a way for my students to kind of work together.
Perfect. Hey, Jared, guess what?
What?
The bell just rung. Get out.
OK, bye. See ya.
[THEME MUSIC PLAYING]