In this episode of UEN Homeroom, Dani and Matt are joined by Spencer Jenkins, CEO and Executive Director of the Utah Education and Telehealth Network (UETN). First, Spencer shares how his commitment to education in Utah led him to UETN. Then, he shares insight into what makes UETN a leader in innovative educational practices and how its services are making a difference across our state.
In this episode of UEN Homeroom, Dani and Matt are joined by Spencer Jenkins, CEO and Executive Director of the Utah Education and Telehealth Network (UETN). First, Spencer shares how his commitment to education in Utah led him to UETN. Then, he shares insight into what makes UETN a leader in innovative educational practices and how its services are making a difference across our state.
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Hey, Matt.
Hey, Dani.
How's it going?
Good. I'm excited to talk to our guest today.
So our guest today is our boss's, boss's boss? Is that correct?
I think something like that.
Is that why you're a little nervous?
A little bit.
I'm just kidding.
We're talking today to Spencer Jenkins, who is the new executive director of UETN.
He is, and I think it's super cool that he wanted to sit down and talk with us.
Yeah. I'm excited to hear what he has in store for us to talk about, what's going to happen with UETN in the next few years. But then also, what projects he's excited about across the UETN spectrum.
Exactly, and how he got to where he is today. So join us in listening in with Spencer Jenkins.
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Join UETN Homeroom at USET 23, on March 14th and 15th, at the Utah Valley Convention Center. This year promises to be a great year with keynotes in a Utah Ed Chat format from local educators, including First Lady Abby Cox and Utah State superintendent Sidney Dixon. Join presentations from experts all over Utah and around the world on a variety of topics, including technology integration, personalized competency-based learning, coaching, and more. Beyond some great presentations from UETN, explore UETN photo booth and author meet and greet on the second floor. Register now for USET 23 at uset.org.
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Welcome to UEN Homeroom. We are so lucky today to have Spencer Jenkins with us today from UEN. He's going to be walking us through some of UEN's great programming and things like that, here in the state of Utah. But to start off, can you tell us a little bit about your background in education, and what led you to working for UETN?
Sure. Appreciate you having me on, by the way. I love this opportunity.
I'm more of a hack. I'm a political hack. 12 years ago, I got an opportunity to begin doing communications for universities and colleges in the state and got into their policy work. And before I knew it, I fell in love with being an advocate for education in the state, especially for those in the underserved areas. When you meet teachers and administrators who focus on getting to those populations that don't have that open-door opportunity that a lot of us have had, that's really the motivating aspect of all of this for me.
I love that. When you look at education in our state, what makes Utah so special, and how have you seen that change and evolve over the last 20 to 30 years?
So in my mind, there's two things. One is a more practical factor. Utah to me is a right-sized kind of state to do things at a state level. You go to bigger states, like a California, and you look at all that they're dealing with, it's incredibly challenging.
You go to say a Wyoming or New Mexico-- and don't want to offend our neighbors, but it's a little more rural. And I feel like Utah has got this balance in terms of size, space, and everything else, that they can do things at a state level. That's one factor, more logistical.
The other side of it, though, I do think there is a little bit of a let's get it done together attitude. We may not always agree in the political arenas we run in, but at the end of the day, I do feel like, especially in education, there's a sense of we're in this together, despite the shortage of resources. I think that's what leads to people being more innovative and creative in the way they do things. And that's where I feel like UETN has this cool niche in the innovative space, when it comes to education.
I love that, because one of the things that I've noticed going to conferences around the country and talking to educators from other states that are maybe doing similar things in their state as my job at UETN is that they call us a unicorn. That we're an organization that seems to do a lot of really interesting and engaging things for education in the state of Utah, but it's not something that all is combined into one, like another state. And I think that's a really interesting quality of UETN and what we offer to the state.
Yeah. I think that's well said. I don't think we'd put it out there on our moniker that we're a unicorn. I think part of what makes us fun and special is the fact that we strive to be there in a supporting role to our education, our education enterprise.
We're not there trying to get ahead of our teachers. Right? We're there to help our teachers be successful. I think that's what makes things work at UETN.
Agreed, for sure. Now, it's time for one of our student questions.
Hi. This is Teddy, from Valley View Elementary. Who has been your favorite teacher in your life, and what made them so special for your career in education?
So my favorite teacher was my sixth grade teacher. Her name was Elaine Zuzacleese, and extra points if anyone can spell her name. She was from Greek lineage.
But what made her special was her personalized nature. She made every student feel special. I don't think all sixth graders are outgoing and love talking to others, and it's a funky age for a lot of us. I was pretty shy and recoiling, and she brought out my confident side. And I look at teachers like that, they are life changers.
And it's not necessarily how well they teach, but it's how they connect with kids. And my few opportunities I've had to go in classrooms, whether virtually or in person, those teachers that make that effort I think is really cool. And I think that's the magic of education is helping kids not only learn, but learn in a confident way.
I love that, and I love that you brought up Ms. Zuzacleese, and how she personalized learning to make you feel like you were the most important student, and this builds off of that. What do you think some attributes teachers have that are key to success in the classroom over the course of their career? Even as things are changing, pandemic back to work, what are we doing here?
Yeah. I wish I knew what the magic formula was. I'm envious in some regard of teachers, especially those that love what they do. You can see the commitment from them. Anecdotally, at least among my own kids, it's those teachers-- to me it's those same traits. And I don't know if it's partly developed, partly in their nature, I don't know.
But as a profession, you can't help but honor teachers, especially when they make a career out of being in the classroom. It's not something that obviously makes them rich. It should, but that impact they have on students. And you think about, year in, year out, 25 to 30 kids, whether it's in high school or elementary or even in post-secondary, they never quite know what the impact will be. But boy, you can only imagine if they didn't have that opportunity what the adverse impacts can be.
And it sounds really, I guess-- I don't know if this is a politically-correct term-- but Pollyanna-ish that we hope that teachers would do that. They generally do, and I think that's just an undervalued component to teaching is just that general life impact that's an extension of everyone's upbringing, whether it's from whatever background it's from. When you get into that education realm, especially public education, it's a tremendous opportunity.
And the trait, I guess going back to your original question, it's that commitment that teachers strive for that brings out their caring nature to make a student successful. Again, going back to my teacher that made me feel like I was achieving something, that's all feel good stuff, but it's very basic. It's what gives us that platform to get us into what we're doing today as professionals. Right?
Right, and I think that's why most of our educators go into education. It's because they want to make that difference. And so I love hearing that the secret sauce is probably what teachers already have that they maybe forgotten or gotten buried under different things that make it hard.
Or bureaucratic policies--
Yes.
--that come down from certain decision makers. We're not going to name names, but--
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Well, it's an idea-- going back to this teacher that you had-- of validating you as a person outside of the home and making sure that you understood that you were something valuable to the larger community. And I think as teachers, kind of parroting back what you said, teachers are change-makers. And they allow students to make real change in their lives, regardless of sometimes the intent of the teacher. Sometimes the intent is, I'm going to go in, and I'm going to teach my content. But in teaching that content, it changes that student's perception of education.
Yeah. Yeah, and to add to that, I think a challenge teachers have is the way young people learn has changed and is changing. And I think it's changing even faster and faster, the way technology rules our life to some degree, for good or for bad. And for a teacher to stay up on that is incredibly challenging, and that requires them to put in their own time.
That doesn't go towards another college degree necessarily. It's just keeping up on latest technologies that help students in their current mindset with all the technology around them to learn stuff. That's hard. That's not something that's just in a handbook somewhere.
Yeah. Well, because I think we're all still figuring out what that balance is and what it looks like. How much tech is too much tech? How much is the right amount? And that's not in a book anywhere, because I don't think anyone can definitively say.
Yeah. It's that idea of what is the best resource, but we don't know. There's so many resources coming at us now. It's not just a pencil anymore.
Yeah.
It's 50 million things.
Well, and nowadays, so I shouldn't admit this, but I have five kids, from kindergarten up to high school. So I'm getting the full breadth of education. Of those five kids, one of them has one textbook, in high school. It's a chemistry textbook. Everything else is done on a screen.
Now, they get books that they read, which is really great. There's still power in the page, I think, with doing that. But it also shows the way in which students are getting their information and learning. Like you said, there's just so much they can get to.
And now there's this whole chatter around the AI writers. Right? I don't know, there's a few tools. That's on the horizon. Imagine a teacher in three or four or five-- less than that maybe-- and kids are coming with papers that are written by a tool rather than them actually doing the writing. And so there's a lot on teachers that they have to do to navigate the technological landscape. It's huge.
There is. It feels like we're reaching this peak. Right? But then I think about a teacher actually reading essays, and there may not be a technological solution to like, oh, was this written by AI, or what points were? But a teacher actually reading an essay, I think they can tell. They already know what that student voice sounds like.
And they know that-- and it's about knowing the students and how they interact in the classroom, which you don't-- technology doesn't take care of that. Right?
Yeah.
So I think there's a cool underlying component.
It's like back to that balance and back to more of the humanizing side, after what feels like a big technological push.
And then on top of that, information transmission has changed. 50 years ago, even 20 years ago, books printed word were the thing, and now we have video applications. We got podcasts. We've got all sorts of stuff that students are learning to do in their free time that could easily translate to the educational classroom.
Yeah. This is bad. So I'm a closet Jane Austen fan. I shouldn't admit this, but I was on a recent drive down for work, down to Saint George, and I listened to Pride and Prejudice. It had been several years.
What struck me-- and part of that was the role of a library back-- obviously, I don't know all the history. these are fiction books, but I think it conveys the history of knowledge. Right? Back then, a very rich part of the aristocracy in England who had a library was very highly sought after.
And now, how many books-- we all listen to audiobooks. I just got my favorite audiobook from the library downloaded on my phone, I'm going to catch on the way home. So it's just so different. It's amazing.
Yeah. One of my previous lives as an educator was working in higher Ed as an English teacher. And one of my favorite charts in the entirety that I've come across in that part of my career was the chart of novel growth over time. So you start with no novels around the-- very few novels around the mid-17th century, and then it just exponentially goes up, until you hit the 20th century. It's just almost a straight up exponential curve, and so you're exactly right talking about Jane Austen.
And 150 years ago, having a library, having even a single book in your house was a privilege. And now, like you said, if a student has a smartphone, they can get on an app like Sora or Libby, and they have access to millions upon millions of books that they can listen to, that they can read, that they can watch, but that doesn't even limit them. They also have YouTube and all these sorts of things. And so in my opinion, when we talk about learning, especially in the K-12 classroom, we have to-- with AI and those things in play, we have to rethink about how we're approaching assessments and those sorts of things. I love that.
So with that in mind, the mission of statewide organizations, like UETN, USHE, USB, are to help and develop and provide resources for educators in a variety of capacities, from administrators down to a classroom teacher. What are some of the best resources that you know of for Utah educators? What are some of the statewide organizations that help? What are some ways that statewide organizations help show gratitude for educators as well?
Well, so starting with UETN-- and being the new person, I can lay this out there, and I won't get attacked too much. Whoever dreamed up the model for UETN 20, 30-plus years ago, I think were the fortunate beneficiaries of that, or benefactor, recipients of that forethought. And largely because, A, it's a statewide entity, and we talked about the value of what we can do in Utah at a statewide level.
But none of what we do here is mandated. So whether it's our internet connection, professional development services, anything, we do it as a service. And if people see value in it, we love it. And that's what we strive for, which is I think it kind of unique among public entities like ours.
A lot of agencies get saddled with the requirement to regulate, and I hope we never have to do that. Because it gives us some freedom to go, OK, what is it that teachers need or want? What are they looking for? And we can flexibly move between technologies and other things to help provide that value-add for what they're seeking.
The other thing that UETN provides, at least in terms of additional resources, is just ongoing content. And one of the things I think that is nice is it's hard I think sometimes for teachers to find the content that's authoritative. You take some of these tools like that's in Google Classroom, like a Jamboard or Scribble or whatever those different tools are, the one thing that I feel like is nice with UETN, we're there, hopefully, providing an authoritative voice to a lot of the noise in the technology arena, in the edtech arena. And so I do think resources like that, hopefully, are of value to teachers in the classroom, that saves them the time of cutting through thousands of YouTube videos, for example. Not that YouTube isn't valuable, and it's an incredible resource. But as a teacher, it's you have to move a level above that to find what's the authoritative tool, training-- Or the authoritative training that can help me do the best job in the classroom? I think with that is our partners. The distance Ed specialists in districts, hugely under-resourced, but I feel like they're an incredible resource, if utilized in a way by teachers that become this-- they're like the roadie for all teachers in their district. And I think that's an important community. You go to any of those conferences, or to the CTE conferences, those to me are some of the most vibrant K-12-related forums around what's working in the classroom, what's innovating in the classroom, in a way that's not just the shiny stuff, but what's really working.
So as far as resources, I think those key groups that, especially moving the edtech area, every classroom has technology in it now. I think we've been around long enough, remember, the talk around one device for every student. Well, we've fast surpassed that. It's now multiple devices per student. And so the issue isn't getting a device. It's getting a device effectively and using it effectively, both in the classroom and then when they take that home with them.
Going back to that textbook experience with my kids, they always have the access to their stuff. And it's a matter of, as a parent, you've got to discipline them, but on the teacher side, it's the same thing. Get them focused on the stuff that's going to best help them, as they wade through this world of information.
I think for us older folks, that was not the issue. It was, oh, I need to do research-- this is 30 years ago-- I need to do research on a topic. I've got to go to a library. Well, you really want to be a cool kid, you go to the university library, and then you have someone helping you get access to the stuff up there.
Nowadays, that's all out there, and like the Utah online library, that's all there in someone's, literally, their bedroom or their coffee shop, or where ever they're studying. So anyway, very long-winded, I apologize, but the authoritative part of getting these resources to teachers I think is incredibly important in today--
I agree with you 100%, and I love that you brought up that the technologies that are handed out by local educational agencies to students need to be thought of in terms of not just in the classroom. They need to be thought of at home. They need to be thought of in their coffee shop, as you brought up.
And that's why I love working for UETN and learning about all of the different things that we provide. One of my favorite things that I learned about that I didn't know as an educator was eduroam and being able to connect to eduroam all over the state, all over in schools. And it's a network that I can get on my computer and know that I have an internet connection solid. And I think that's one of those things that, if more teachers knew about that and signed up for it, more students knew about it and signed up for it, it would open up some really quality doors for that equity piece of making sure that everyone's taken care of.
No, and I'm glad you brought that up. When you talk about-- Utah, that's what's cool about UETN. I think we know there's a lot of access to internet. It's available.
However, that's a easy to say on paper, but you know there are populations out there who don't have that access. Or they're accessing it through a smartphone, because that's all they've seen. Maybe they're making their phone a hotspot for computers in the house or Chromebooks that they've brought home from school. And something like eduroam, and other tools that are out there that may not be as visible or as glitzy as what they're seeing advertised on social media or on billboards, I think that's the key is getting authoritative info out there for teachers and students.
Yeah, and looking for those Swiss army knife tools as well, not just tools that are flashy. Because that's often where we get trapped is-- at least I always get trapped. I'm like, that's cool.
Yeah.
Yeah. Like we're a bunch of squirrels in this office. Oh, this is cool.
It's the most true thing that you've said today.
[LAUGHTER]
I really appreciated your analogy of what we used to do for research. Right? We used to have to go to the library. And if you were going to the big university library, you definitely had to talk to a librarian, and they can show you. Right? And now, it seems like we're going from librarians and UETN like providing the things and stuff, but helping to filter through the things and stuff. It's different now.
When I was writing my dissertation, one of the most helpful people was the librarian at the University of Utah who-- there's a specific one who like knows about education issues, and she is a wizard of knowledge. She was able to help us cut through the craziness, and here's what you need. Here are how to use these tools, to filter the information that's coming in. And I see UETN as helping to do that, and educators as well.
Yeah.
When we're talking about educational systems statewide, something that Matt and I hear that Matt brought up earlier is how innovative we are at Utah, how great it is that we have a resource like UETN for our education system here. Big systems aren't really able to be flexible and shift, as we are at UETN. We can be really nimble. But how have you seen Utah's education system be innovative and change the way that we're doing things, and how did UETN help with that?
So I would say UETN doesn't necessarily have a corner on innovation. Right? I think what makes things work is more of a cultural mindset, even if large or small organizations. But you look right now, these automated writers, like ChatGPT kinds of things.
They started as small little apps that came out, and they're just catching like wildfire, and that's the nature of our world. And I think for young people to condition their minds to learn in an environment like that, it's helping them find the stuff that's right and true. You know what I mean?
We've lived through a few political cycles of fake news and what social media's impact can be. And in fact, I think as a generation, we've learned a lot these last three or four years. For students in the learning labs of the classrooms, getting that from teachers, saying here's how you distinguish truth and stuff that's fake as you live your lives on a screen, is incredibly powerful.
So I think an entity like ours, for the state of Utah, that's our stewardship, and I feel like that's an important one to take very seriously. But also to keep in mind-- I think this is why things do work in a place like Utah-- is that it's not just Utah-centric. It's getting that experience of a virtual reality tour of the Mayan jungle or something like that.
The experiences students can have are amazing, and it's learning about other cultures and values. That's just as important, and that's where I think, in the education realm, this is where politically speaking education gets accused of being overly liberal. It's because we're in the world of ideas, and it's giving that exposure. It's giving that equitably-balanced lens to people's experiences that say, yes, your experience growing up as a young person was couched in this environment, which is great.
It could have been an amazing experience, but here's where education can expand that. It doesn't mean you have to change your value system. But to better understand other people's value systems, that's an education that we couldn't get 20 years ago.
And going back to that authoritative piece, it's just that's I think where we provide that as an education. Not to push people to say here's some values, but you need to believe these values too. That's where it gets skewed. That's the political dialogue creeping in on what we're trying to accomplish, but I didn't answer your question very well.
But I do think organizations like UETN and school boards, I think they're trying to do the same thing. Even those that make political decisions on our behalf, I think their intentions are the same. It's just sometimes the dialogue gets spun up in this really political, divided match sometimes. I'm hoping we're growing past that, as social media, as we're all learning as we go along down this path.
Absolutely. We've learned like, oh, it can totally be used as a tool for evil. We can totally just pin each other on opposite sides of whatever it is. And I think most people are chilling out and coming back down.
Like oh, maybe this isn't how we change hearts and minds. Yelling at people on the internet, they're not seeing it my way. What? And we're figuring that out as a society and what works and doesn't work for us. And so I share your optimism that, hopefully, we're learning and moving to a place where we're more inclusive of others' ideas and cultures and who they are.
Yeah. If I can share just a quick--
Please.
--experience. I was on the road yesterday with my 18-year-old daughter, and she was watching-- of course, streaming a movie. I'm not going to name the movie, but it was an '80s movie. You can imagine a 1980s pop genre movie.
You think in your mind, how many stereotypes, how many off-color things. They just don't work. What was cool is my daughter started to-- she hadn't seen it before. I'm like, here's a movie that I grew up with, and she was like, dad, this is the weirdest, dumbest movie.
[LAUGHTER]
But it was incredibly popular, and it's a good reminder, I think, of where society I think has been learning over the generation.
Yes, how far we've come.
Right, and so you look at things like Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements, and they become politically fueled rather quickly. But you look underlying that, I do think it helps our society better understand each other. When you look at the long tail of this-- at first it's really jarring.
And I'm not saying jarring events are good, or we need to seek after those. That's just the pop nature of this stuff coming over, coming on us. But once you get past it, you look at the conversations that are starting to happen.
Now, are we out of the woods? No. We have so many things to look at systemically. We've got to fix a bunch of things, but man, education is a great platform for that.
Absolutely. I love that you brought up, in all of your comments so far today, but especially over the last couple of minutes, about awareness and how awareness plays-- that's something that I constantly think about in this position. At my position at UEN and even before that was how we can make teachers more aware of the resources? But then also conversely, how can we help our students be more aware of other cultures, other situations, other standpoints? And not, like you say, not in a political way, but in a way that allows them to better fully understand the world around them and help them get to a better place as a learner. I think what you said is so important there and how awareness plays a role in education.
Yeah. To me, you look at the different opportunities that the government side of the public society side has to help marginalized populations. I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir on this. Education is by far the most effective and accessible way to do that over all kinds of other programs.
Do they all have ways that they can work? You bet, but to give the idea to a young person in rural Utah who may be a racial minority, to think, well, if I do this, this, and this in education, I'm going to be able to do this that I'm striving for. There are very few social programs that afford that kind of fulfilling viewpoint for a lot of young people.
And again, I know that sounds maybe a little bit cheesy, especially coming from a White male, sitting in Salt Lake City, Utah. But the little exposure I've had to those marginalized populations, I just feel like, man, if we're not creating those opportunities, then there's really not many other things we should be striving for. It's what makes the world work.
And again, that sounds very idealistic, but I do feel like that's the essence of what makes education roll. And you think of education a century ago, a schoolhouse being built in a rural town, that was the pioneering spirit of Utah at the time. Right? You'd be doing the same kind of thing, whether it's through technology or through the support of teachers in those rural areas.
You hear of those stories where a teacher connects with a student. Tintic School District or these other districts, what an experience to go out there and see those teachers. It is not a glamorous thing, but the fulfillment side, oh, man, that's stuff that-- that's a way more interesting podcast episode than this one is.
But I love what you're saying there though of the pioneering spirit and reaching out to communities that need support. You talked about 100 years ago. I'm thinking 15 years ago.
Yeah.
You look at a district down south that UETN gave them-- helped them get internet in their schools 15 years ago. That changed that community fundamentally overnight and their student population. I think that's a big part of, personally, why I love working for UETN but also why I love Utah Education. We're pioneering to support these communities that don't get that support usually. I love that.
Well, and it shows the world we're in the role of the internet. 20 years ago, it was a joke on The Simpsons. Like the internet, is this thing is still around? Now, it's the real deal.
Yeah. Absolutely. So we've learned a lot in K-12. We've been talking a lot about K-12, but you have a background in higher ed. Correct? You worked at USHE for a long time. Remind me of the acronym. I always forget.
Utah System of Higher Education.
That's it.
Very, very, very attractive name. Right?
[LAUGHTER]
I always forget what the S stands for.
It's just always been USHE.
System, it sounds like a spaceship. Right? It's like--
The USHE is coming for us.
System of higher ed.
Yes.
Anybody here USHE, I'm sorry. You worked for USHE and higher Ed for a long time. What can K-12 learn from higher Ed and vice versa? What are some of those things that we can exchange?
Starting on the vice versa side, what I-- K-12, it's compulsory. Right? Teachers have to adapt to where the student's at. Students are going to show up whether they turn the lights on or not, whether the teacher decides to be a good teacher or a bad teacher, or whether they have the resources or not. That's the nature of K-12. To me, that's where you see a lot of innovation that occurs.
In post-secondary, there's differing viewpoints, and I think it's starting to emerge even more and more and more, the role of post-secondary. There are some that say, well, a four-year degree should only be for those that really have the temerity to get a four-year degree. There are others that say, well, that's the gold standard for being well employed.
And then there are others that say, well, actually, higher Ed needs to unbundle itself and get past what they think the traditional ivory tower and innovate to the speed by which students learn. And the way they're showing up on campus now, on post-secondary campus, the amount of information and knowledge they have is so much deeper than it was 10, 20 years ago. And quite frankly, there are a lot of institutions that aren't keeping up with what's been changing in the last decade, the way students learn.
The other part that I think post-secondary has on their plate is the speed of the economy. Hands down, the most popular reasons students go to post-secondary is to get that job opportunity. Sure, there are other wonderful experiences that we want to instill in them, as they come on campus in the post-secondary world. But they primarily show up because they're seeking that livelihood opportunity.
Well, that economy moves really fast. A four-year degree for a lot of people really is not working very well at the speed by which an economy moves nowadays, and I think that's the challenge that higher Ed has in front of him. There's a lot of innovation occurring there. There's a lot of unbundling of that four-year degree or that traditional college experience that you're starting to see, both in the public realm, but also there's a lot of providers starting to surface, the micro-credentials, the certificates, the world of side hustles and other things.
Man, a young person coming out of high school, I love what Superintendent Dixon talks about all the time. It's not what you want to be in life but what do you want to do? It's focused a lot more on the individual.
And my senior high school daughter, it's interesting to talk to her. Because I'm sitting there in my mind, as a traditionalist, like you've got to get into a four-year school. There's these great ones like University of Utah and others that are more selective.
And it's like, no, I want to go to Utah Valley, and I want to see what's out there. And also I want to continue to do my photography hobby, and I have some stuff I want to try. And so it's a much more diversified mindset of a young person that, OK, a college credential has some value, but it fits in this portfolio of experience in building their job.
The cool thing-- I know there's not a lot of cool things of our COVID experience. I do think one of them is it's upended traditional work life. The flexibility, frankly, the inability of the employer side to say, come back to the office and mandate that, and it's not working, to me that's a cool part of it. It's empowering people who have the skill set to do what they want to do. It's sort of the democratization of the workforce, or maybe it's another version of that, one more step away from the nasty industrial revolution, I guess.
I think it all fits into this societal shift that's slower moving. But the last decade, to your original question of what higher Ed and public Ed can learn from each other, public Ed is already seeing it, and they experienced it with the pandemic of students don't learn terribly well over the screen. But man, technology has a role, and it really helps them get to information. Post-secondary, they're just barely catching up to it, and just by customer demand on that side, over half of students now take an online course.
Now, are they 100% online? No. They still want the in-person experience, but they're figuring out ways to do their education more efficiently than the institutions themselves. And so there's a lot going on in education I think is really cool, and it's going to leave some institutions behind. Others, they'll innovate, and they'll keep up.
Yeah. I absolutely love that, because it reminds me of conversations I used to have with my school counselors at my old school, where I came from higher Ed to K-12. Like I was in a weird process there. And talking to the school counselors, my first year, I was very much the classic mindset-- go to a four-year institution, get the college degree. And then talking to them and seeing the students that I worked with that doesn't work for everyone.
And talking to them about trade schools, talking to them about things like, in my area, where I live, it's the OHC. But showing them that there's alternative paths to succeeding in life that doesn't necessarily revolve around going to higher Ed. But like you said, higher Ed hasn't caught onto that yet, I don't think fully. I think a lot of them are. I think some of the younger-- maybe not younger. Maybe more agile faculty have recognized that there's a way to encourage professional development with those students to get them prepared for the workforce, but it's not a solidified fact of higher Ed right now.
It's not instilled in the traditional faculty mindset. Right?
Exactly.
The role of innovation of an individual faculty member, it's hard to get past the annals of some of the traditional ivory tower, and it's hard. Higher education has been around for so long, and it's always catered to the upper echelon of a society, but you're seeing it now. Look at net right now the talent shortage. I think a lot of that is this democratization of the workforce. People in the workforce side, or those of us that are striving to earn a livelihood, is I don't know if that four-year degree makes total sense.
Now, my I think post-secondary is critically important. Is the traditional four-year degree important? At the end of the day, it probably is, but the way someone gets there, there's so many different paths.
And that's what should be instilled in a young person's mind is you can take six years to get there. You can get some cool job experience. You can do stuff that makes you motivated. Don't let that system be the motivating factor, and I think it's the same thing with faculty.
And it's been interesting the last few years, just on a local level, they've merged these two post-secondary systems, the tech colleges and the traditional universities and colleges. I think that's created a bit of a tension. Where you mentioned Ogden Weber, they're used to doing competency-based training. Right? That's what they're rooted in, and over the years, that system has bounced between-- it started in K-12, and it's moved into higher Ed.
And you look across the country, tech training or vocational training was always a stepchild to college and K-12. To me, that's some of the sweet sauce of Utah. You look at what you can do at one of those tech colleges, like a cosmetology certificate, it's a fraction of the price of some of the other non-public institutions.
Now, are they also good? Yes. You bet. But as far as Utah resources, there are some great resources out there. And I think it goes back to the authoritative component of this is, can we as those stewards of the public opportunity for Utahns get that out there to people? I think that's part of the innovation, I think, and you were saying that is getting the word out to people on that stuff. Right?
I love this idea of the back and forth between higher Ed and K-12 and K-12 to higher Ed. I think, like you said, through the pandemic, we learned that there are some opportunities for distance learning. Is it best? Is it best for everyone? Oh my gosh, no. Please, no. Never make us do that again, but there are opportunities where it works really, really well.
And as far as higher Ed, I think they're going to have to learn that they have to be different. We can't lecture at our own pace to 200 students, to someone who has had personalized competency-based education like. This is not what I expected from education.
This is not what I want, and I think that there is a lot to learn from each other and just that the wide variety of ways to learn. Because in any situation, and kids go to real life and work life, and it doesn't just look like this box. And so I think there's a lot of room to learn from each other in this space.
And I think an important aspect of that on the equity front is there are those that are given the tools rather easily to go create your destiny. There are those that may not see that as easily, and I think that's the key is seeing that, to me, there's much more equitable opportunity than there ever has been. But again, it's back to the communicating that and allowing people to see that. I think that's the challenge, honestly.
Well, and you said something wonderful earlier. You quoted a Superintendent Sid Dixon, and what do you want to be? I go along with that and say, what do you want to learn?
I think there's so much importance at all levels of education, from kindergarten all the way up till post-secondary. What is it that-- why are you here? What do you want to learn? What do you want to get out of this situation? That if educators are willing to ask that question, but on the flip side, students are willing to answer that question honestly, we can have some really cool conversations and lead to some really great innovations in education, period.
Well, and also I think it conveys where we are nowadays from our parents' generation of you get through college, and you get to that kind of plateau of learning. And you now have a career, and you're going to work at the same firm for 20 years and have a great retirement. You see how the workforce shifts.
They don't feel loyal to employers. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's an empowering opportunity, and I think conveying that to young people, that you may hate doing homework, but wiring yourself to learn and to learn agilely-- is that an adjective--
We're going to go with it.
--that's what gets you on a trajectory of fulfilling success. It may not make you rich. None of us are getting rich off of this, but it's that fulfilling opportunity. And I think that's what's cool, at the end of the day, with education. It's becoming a lifelong experience more than ever.
Well, and it's also becoming something that they drag into the workforce as well, like you said. I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend, and she said, I've switched firms in my career, so that I can go and learn this specific skill set at this firm. And then I have a couple of year plan, where I'll move to another firm and learn another couple of skills. And she's just got this education plan that is integrated in with her earning potential and lifelong business plan that I thought was just absolutely fascinating. And I went, if more people attach that kind of significance to who they work with, where they work, and what they learn while they work, it would be a much better world.
Yeah. Well, and it's flipping the mantra. I should be careful is, as someone who's managing an organization. But for employees or people that are seeking to get jobs, they're doing it to get the skill set and experience. And there's not that loyalty mantra of like, you've got to be part of this company because it's the-- no.
Sure, everyone likes to be part of an organization and part of cool, a broader group of working towards something, a common goal, and those sorts of things. Those are really important still. But along with that, it's part of that, well, I've got a personal mission to do this, this, and this, so I can do this in my life, and it may or may not include just one employer. It'll probably more likely, statistically speaking, it's going to be several employers, and I think that's just something that wasn't there 20 years ago.
All right. So now, we have an opportunity for you to play fortune teller. Right? This is what you came here for.
I've always gotten it wrong. I promise.
[LAUGHTER]
All right. So it's going to be opposite day.
OK. Yes.
Whatever he says, we're going to just do the opposite. No, no, no. What are some ways that you think UETN can be helpful to make learning and educational practices more manageable for Utah educators, students, and parents? And you can speak to K-12 or pre-K 20.
Oof, this is a tricky one. In fact, as an organization, we're bringing a consultant in to help us answer this question. I do think there's a bit of an inflection point, as we come out of COVID, for education, and a lot of it has to do with technology and how we use technology.
I genuinely worry, 5 to 10 years from now, the education enterprise-- for lack of a better description-- doesn't enjoy the reputation and respect it needs to have among learners, whether it's post-secondary or K-12. I think one of the challenges in a world of information is people get ideas and perceptions that they're wired to say, well, I don't trust this teacher, because teachers do x, y, and z, sort of negative things. And it becomes a black-and-white experience, that all teachers are bad because of x, y, and z.
And so as an enterprise for education, I worry that for learners that's going to become a much broader-- more broadly accepted perception. Now, what does that mean for UETN? I think it means sticking to some of our core values around being a service-oriented entity to helping educators do their job well and do it in an agile way.
Now, the specifics of that, I think that's what's tricky is can we keep ourselves agile enough to help our teachers be agile to keep up with the popular trends of technology? That's hard. Technology is a fast-moving boat, and it's becoming a driving part of how people learn-- or it already is. It's not becoming. That, to me, I think, is the big challenge that we've got to help with our education enterprise.
And I say enterprise, because you take any component to that, whether it's pre-education, charters, private, public, and I don't want to get political, but say vouchers become a much more mainstream thing in Utah, for example. That could be on the horizon. The politicization of a lot of how education policy is done in the state, that's going to have an impact on how learners view education as an enterprise. That, to me, is a really important thing, because over the years, education has been valued as a pinnacle of what drives society. The research of our post-secondary institutions, that high-end research, that's how we have the internet. Right?
The old parochial days of school houses in the small town, that was the central part of a town. At least in my mind, it was. I don't know if that's true, but I think generally, talking back to libraries, the learning-- the institutionalized learning, I think that still has a role. And I worry if that loses its ability to move society that things start to fall apart a little bit more. I know, again, that's very big picture idealistic, but for UETN, I think we have to figure out, how do we ensure the education enterprise truly is a service enterprise that keeps the institution of education reputable, thriving, and keeping pace with today's world?
I love that, because I've been thinking about this a lot this last week. I was reading a book and just to pop psychology--
Better than me. I was listening to the book.
I do that too, but yeah, it's a pop psychology book. And the guy who wrote the book did a very, as an English person, person with a background in English literature, he did a very bad retelling of Romeo and Juliet. That as I was listening to it and reading it, I was going, there's like 15 things wrong with this, how you explain this story. And I was thinking and reflecting on that, about it's not even misinformation but this idea of how do we instill and maintain and collaboratively build the trust back into educational positions, into training positions, into coaching positions? And I that's something that's on a lot of people's minds, not just here at UETN but across the state of Utah and across the nation of how can we keep the trust going between our organization, our teachers, our teachers and our students, our teachers and parents, and the organization as a whole and the community in which we exist?
Yeah, and I think that's the key. And there's going to be-- there will be that tension. Right? The education enterprise is going to need to innovate, and then those that are involved with it are going to have to have some trust in it. There's going to be a balanced tension, I guess, but hopefully, I guess I have faith in it too.
I don't want to suggest that education is just falling apart, but I think it's being more challenged than ever. And in some ways, it's unfortunate, because a lot of it, I think, is unfounded. But on the other side of it is there's a lot of innovation and other things that need to rise to the surface that isn't being allowed to because of it being so institutionalized. And this is just an iterative evolution of education, but it's just moving so quickly now. I think that's the most complex part of it is how fast it's happening.
I think all of the educational technology and programs and devices and those kind of things definitely are moving at a more rapid pace than we could have ever imagined. But I think that the overarching idea is how we teach our students. Those things remain quite constant, even if we're using different tools to get there. So I think it's good that we do have that anchor in we do know what's best.
And I do think that, yes, education is definitely being challenged a lot right now, but I think it's a few loud voices, and I think it's good. I think ask us all the hard questions that we should be asking ourselves. Yes, because this is our chance to make it better for all of our students. But I do think that the majority of Utahns, like when it really comes down to it, support their teachers and public education as a whole.
Totally agree.
I agree with what you're saying, and I think it's a really great opportunity in education and not something to be terrified of, that it's falling apart.
Right. Yeah, totally agree, and again, I don't want to come across as like education is on the precipice of falling apart. It really isn't, but I feel like that it's constantly being challenged. And technology has a component to that, the way people consume information.
Absolutely.
But at the same time, there are some amazing things going on in education. Right? And to see the-- you're right. There's underlying principles, and this is beyond my expertise.
I have not been in the classroom. Maybe someday I'll get there. That's the kind of stuff I think that there's still some tried-and-true principles that are keeping education as an instilled authoritative way in which people learn. Yeah. It's still there. Right?
Absolutely. It's just like, what voice are you listening to, the loud scary ones? Like we don't want people to think that. I think I'm very confident in public education in Utah. I am proud to work in this space and to shout from rooftops what educators are doing. But also, like listening to the loud voices and having it be an opportunity to pivot.
I think it's super important to acknowledge too that we've got to bring the quality things that are happening in education in the state of Utah to the forefront of the conversation. And listen to those difficult-- have the difficult conversations, listen to those voices, but then also bring the best examples possible to the forefront. And I think that's something that as an organization we do really well.
Yeah.
Not to toot our own horn.
No, and again, I think it goes back to us not being required to regulate certain things. And I look at in politics it's popular, at least in Utah, there's local control versus standardization. To me, those are somewhat opposite in the perspectives around education, and I think there's a role for both of those. And I don't think those of us here in UETN pretend, when we go into certain communities, to know more than they know and how to educate their young people. To me, that's the balance of local control, local implementation.
But we as a state entity, we certainly bring resources that they couldn't otherwise get access to, and I think that's the magic of what works in public education. And frankly, what happened what works in Utah, because it's right sized enough we can do something, between scaling at the state level, where it's a value, but allowing for that local implementation. And so bringing it back at least to home here in Utah, I do think there's that right balance that a lot of states look at us as a unicorn as a result.
And I can't think of a better way to end the conversation. Thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.
No. It was fantastic. Yeah. I've really appreciated this conversation. So thanks so much, Spencer.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Yeah. Woo-hoo.
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Well that was a fun sit-down with our new boss.
Yeah. Absolutely. There are so many things that he said that are issues that I think about on almost a daily basis, working in my position at UETN, but then also things that just always cropped up as points of conversation in my K-12 educator world as well. And so it's fascinating to see how these conversations, these thoughts about equity, about innovation, about maintaining processes across educational backgrounds play a role at every level of education in the state of Utah.
Right, and how, in our state, how UETN is serving in that service role, and hopefully, we'll continue to do that. And I thought it was really interesting to hear his perspective, because he has a real vision for the state as an education community, and higher Ed is involved in that, really PK up through 20. And I really appreciated hearing that.
Yeah. I absolutely loved how he talked about Utah as a whole, because I think there's something about living on the Wasatch Front that a lot of people tend to think that there's Provo Salt Lake, there's Ogden. But there's a whole state beyond that, and there's communities in those areas that need very specific things. And I love that he talked about how important it is for UETN as an organization and then also just the state level organizations in general, whether it be USHE or USB or UETN, that support those organizations, those smaller schools in the ways that they need to be supported, not in the way that we think they need to be supported.
Absolutely.
I was really grateful for this conversation, really grateful to be working with him at UETN.
We're so lucky.
Yeah.
Thanks for listening, everyone.
We'll see you next time.
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